Daily Kos/Marksb: Further thoughts on Tesla's EV Truck announcement...from a former fleet owner

Daily Kos

Further thoughts on Tesla's EV Truck announcement...from a former fleet owner
By marksb 
2017/11/17 · 17:36
330 Comments (306 New)
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As described in Rei’s diary, Tesla’s truck announcement is hugely important. I wrote a comment that turned into a diary… So here’s my view as a former owner of a medium-sized regional distribution business and fleet owner:

1. My driver would take our (leased, more in a moment) semi rig to the Mobil-Exxon refinery in LA (Torrance, about 110 miles) and pick up a full load of dry ice, then deliver to two aerospace companies nearby, then back on the 405 to the 101N and drop a portion of the load at Amgen and other medical/pharma companies in Thousand Oaks, then hit two more stops before returning to Santa Barbara. Maybe 250 miles round trip, plus some slow-speed delivery to different buildings in the industrial complexes. This Tesla rig would work beautifully for that sort of daily trip.

2. Most of the SoCal deliveries—retail such as Trader Joe’s, Safeway, Beer trucks, CostCo; industrial loads to factories and warehouses, etc., plus all the fuel delivery trucks (the ultimate ironic commentary: an EV semi delivering gasoline and diesel)—make daily round trips of 250 miles or less.

3. Further, most of the container traffic from the Port of LA and Long Beach (the busiest port in the country) is driven to huge facilities outside of LA, to be distributed from there. Trucks run every day and night, hooking up to a container and driven to so-called “inland ports” located in places like Riverside CA, about 75 miles. Trains haul a lot of those containers, but they have to be distributed from there to companies for further distribution. A single rig (with different drivers working shifts) will run day and night, back and forth, LA harbor to Riverside. From the “inland port” the containers are hauled to warehouses and distribution points all over SoCal and to other points beyond. This is true all over the U.S. and many of these distribution trips are under 500 miles.

4. Think of the thousands of trucks you may see in a metropolitan area like LA, and realize that the vast majority are making LOCAL (under 200 miles) trips and deliveries.

5. Now, about finances: the majority of trucks are leased. Very large fleet owners may purchase their fleets, but honestly, leasing makes maximum sense for a business for tax, maintenance, and capital investment points of view. Now take a **million mile** lifetime on the Tesla rig with almost no maintenance and very few on-the-road breakdowns (which is one of the core advantages of EV design), and you are seeing significant return on investment even with a higher initial price, a longer lease period, which means that you may very well see a wash on costs, even the possibility of net lower costs.

6. The cost of running a rig on diesel is huge, and loaded with variation which can destroy a business's net revenue performance. When diesel hit $5/gal 8 or so years back, every business I knew or worked with was caught in a situation where their costs exceeded their profit. Everything Runs On Diesel is the reality of our civilization, and the variations of diesel costs drive every C-level exec or owner nuts in trying to plan a year’s income/costs/profits, deal with fluctuations in costs due to some bullshit excuse (or real issue such as hurricanes, refinery fires, and yearly refinery shutdowns for maintenance) by the oil companies to raise prices and profits or, you know, political bullshit to squeeze whatever country is in the wringer today. The elimination of diesel to an operator is HUGE for all concerned. Add in the cost in time and money for regular maintenance of the engine and drivetrain of a truck, most of which is eliminated in an EV, and the cost savings are significant. I should mention here, probably worthy of a separate diary, that every warehouse, factory and retail outlet has a huge flat roof that’s just waiting for a solar installation, tied into the grid, and potentially integrated into an industrial-sized Tesla battery pack to facilitate charging station on the loading dock. In the half-hour to an hour a truck is at the delivery point, it can be charging, extending the range. Tesla will offer industrial-sized solar installations and battery packs, on lease, and they may be able to make it financially viable to the building owner and operators.

So that’s my business/market view. But wait, there’s more! As a former Tech product manager:

7. In designing an EV truck fleet product line, the semi is the perfect initial product that logically leads to an entire transport product line. It has the size and load-carrying capacity to be able to utilize existing batteries today, and through lighter-weight and aerodynamic design, not compromise the load-carrying capacity. The semi can also enable debugging and refinement—via on-the-road experience—of the design, allowing further focused development of the electromechanical details by using potentially thousands of on-the-road test beds traveling millions of real-world miles.

8. Which in turn offers a future of progressively smaller trucks and buses. Think of the number of smaller, under-26,000 pound rigs you see every day on the road, from mid-sized trucks to delivery vans, including UPS and FedEx and Postal vehicles of all sizes. This is a giant market and one that’s ripe for the picking—an EV delivery vehicle with more than a hundred-mile range that’s capable of carrying an equivalent load and has a network of fast-charge stations (or better, on-sight charging at the fleet lot) is a true game-changer. Especially considering the lower costs of fuel, maintenance, and the potential leasing cost equality or reduction.

9. Oh, and one last thing: Musk/Tesla can only refine the capacity, lower the weight, and slash the cost of batteries if they are able to produce and sell large volumes at a profitable price. Moving into trucking and transport further develops the market and brings higher-volume sales, leading to this capacity and cost advancement.

People still dream of a hydrogen future for transport, but that would require an entirely new and separate infrastructure for production, transport, storage, and delivery of a new liquid fuel, costing many billion$ of investment capital to install over at least a decade. An EV-based transport system requires nothing but grid and solar facility tie-in and a network of serious charging stations—a far cheaper solution, even ignoring the lowered cost of EV maintenance and the potential savings in longer operation hours/miles.

Thanks for reading. As a geek I’ve been talking about this for a decade with my bored but patient friends and family, and now here it is, finally starting.

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marksb
Nov 17 · 05:36:36 PM
Tip Jar
413
marksb
Nov 17 · 05:39:02 PM

I kinda’ geeked out here, but honestly, it’s an exciting development. It’s going to take ten years to see a significant change, but we have to start somewhere, and Musk/Tesla seems to be the only ones willing to do it. I’m spending the day with my sister in the hospital, so I won’t be able to respond for most of the day. Thanks again.
Recommended 165 times
SantaFeMarie marksb
Nov 17 · 05:42:48 PM

Get your geek on — I thought it was great!
Recommended 67 times
elfling marksb
Nov 17 · 06:01:49 PM

Geeky comments and diaries with all the details that a regular general journalist won’t think of and can’t know about are my favorite parts of Daily Kos. :-)
Recommended 108 times
samanthab elfling
Nov 17 · 06:09:02 PM

Me, too!
Recommended 25 times
Mokurai elfling
Nov 17 · 09:07:08 PM

I was a global high-tech market analyst for 17 years. You can't get too geeky for me.
Recommended 24 times
ivote2004 Mokurai
Nov 18 · 12:15:42 AM

I’m with you. Coding here for 46 years; hands-on-keyboards for 53.
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Gareth marksb
Nov 17 · 06:04:13 PM

Thanks for geeking out.  I, for one, am sick of people blowing smoke about fanciful changes, like self-driving cars meaning the impending death of all car ownership.  Sure, and they’ll fly too.  

The Tesla cars?  They are not rational choices, but virtue signaling for elites.  A boondoggle, and if that’s all Tesla ever had they’d go broke within a few years.  But in reality they are a loss leader for creating an electric transport infrastructure.

It’s like people who bought solar panels in the 70s, paying extra for their electricity for reasons of greenness.  Today we put solar panels on our roofs because it saves us money.  Economic sense is what it takes to really change the amount of solar generation.

Getting rid of a diesel fleet and changing to an all-electric Tesla fleet?  Businesses will do it the day it reduces their costs, and not a day sooner.  And you are very right that haulage is exactly where electric vehicles make the best economic sense.  So that day is coming.
Recommended 54 times
Jim M Gareth
Nov 17 · 06:21:47 PM


    The Tesla cars?  They are not rational choices, but virtue signaling for elites.

This is not limited to Tesla.  Nearly every vehicle purchase has some “virtue signaling” component to it.  The number of people who make a vehicle purchase based purely on functional utility is very small.
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aboutmri Jim M
Nov 17 · 06:43:05 PM

Wow, you are about 7-8 years behind.  EV vehicles have been affordable for a few years. I have a Nissan Leaf for just over 3 years and it is the best car I have ever owned.

In the next 3-5 years, there will likely be 30 or more different models to choose from in all price ranges. The only thing that scares me is we are actually way behind China they are going electric at breakneck speeds. One Chinese city just completed making their entire public bus fleet electric, over 14,000 buses. There are probably not more than 1,000 electric buses in the entire USA

Honestly, if it was not for Elon Musk we would likely not even have an EV industry in the US.
Recommended 42 times
PJEvans aboutmri
Nov 17 · 06:49:16 PM

I’ve been driving a Prius for 15. It’s still doing well.
Recommended 13 times
Jim M aboutmri
Nov 17 · 06:49:57 PM

I think you meant this for Gareth?

(FWIW, I have driven a Leaf for 4+ years.  While it’s not necessarily the best car I’ve ever owned, it’s certainly the most cost-effective...basically, my savings on gas and maintenance cover the lease payment.)
Recommended 9 times
aboutmri Jim M
Nov 17 · 06:54:54 PM

I did, sorry Jim
Recommended 3 times
Gareth aboutmri
Nov 17 · 06:51:40 PM

Yup.  And what you don’t have is a Tesla.
Recommended 0 times
aboutmri Gareth
Nov 17 · 06:54:27 PM

Only because the Model 3 was not available otherwise that would have been my first choice.
Recommended 7 times
Gareth aboutmri
Nov 17 · 10:08:03 PM

Again, the market for the Tesla cars is really not that big and will not grow much.  They claim the Model 3 has a 35K base, but in truth it costs around 60K fully loaded.  It’s not a competitor for the Leaf, it’s a competitor for a Mercedes or Land Rover.  Luxury item, not economic choice.
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muirschild Gareth
Nov 17 · 10:55:10 PM

The Bolt, on the other hand, is reasonably cost-competitive.
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Gareth muirschild
Nov 17 · 11:10:25 PM

And when VW starts rolling them out, they will also be cost-competitive.  VW plans to dominate the market for electric cars by 2025, shipping 3 million electric cars a year by then.  For comparison, Tesla is shipping around 100K cars a year.

VW will spend more than Tesla’s total current market capitalization to achieve this.
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Denver11 Gareth
Nov 18 · 02:01:50 AM

Uh — go with the company that is not yet making electric cars but will ship 3 million in 2025 (and until last year was cheating on its emissions tests), or the company that is currently shipping electric cars and can’t keep up with the demand, and oh by the way, is owned by the same guy that owns a company that manages to land first stage rocket boosters on a small platform rocking in the middle of the ocean.

I gotta think about this…..
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Gareth Denver11
Nov 18 · 10:28:49 AM

You make your judgments, I’ll make mine.  Should I:

Go with a company that struggles to make 100K cars a year, with notorious problems in fit, finish, and build quality, which is repeatedly on the verge of bankruptcy but needs to increase their production ten-fold to survive?

Or go with a company that already produces more than 10 million cars per year, including 50,000 fully electric cars plus another 60,000 plug-in hybrids, and sells them globally? 

VW will have five electric models out in 2019, with emphasis on the Chinese and European markets.  Six years later, VW will have 50 different fully electric models, from VW, Audi, Porsche, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, and other brands that are also VW.  They’ll have another 30 or so plug-in hybrids, and around 220 conventional hybrids. 

Tesla will be selling four car models plus a semi?  And ramping up their already problematic production from 100K to millions?  They’re betting on deus ex machina.
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ivote2004 Gareth
Nov 18 · 12:14:40 AM

Perhaps it would have been wise to qualify your sweeping generalization before committing something so ignorant to the public record:

    Again, the market for the Tesla cars is really not that big and will not grow much.

You’ve set yourself up for increasing ridicule over the coming decades.

    "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

    Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943

I realize you’re not as famous or well-positioned as Tom Watson was, but i’ll add your quote to my slide deck so my future audiences can appreciate your foresight ;)
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Gareth ivote2004
Nov 18 · 01:41:56 AM

Sure.  I’ll see you in ten years.  Invest in Tesla stock now. 

You might not be able to buy it anymore in ten years.
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aboutmri Gareth
Nov 18 · 11:10:28 AM

Can’t figure out your hate of Tesla or is it just you are a climate denier , either way it is sad that you have this Axe to grind.

BTW — Tesla has already changed the word but will continue to do so. Also your thoughts about Tesla are so off base because not only will is there incredible demand frontier cars which will expand exponentially but if you understood Tesla you would realize they are way more than car manufacturer. They are the future energy company of the world. Their utility scale battery packs with solar and the commercial vehicles like the Semi are all part of what is a massive movement and they stand at the center.

I might recommend that you do a bit more reading and educate yourself

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Gareth aboutmri
Nov 18 · 11:36:03 AM

I will try to explain again, out of the goodness of my heart, so you don’t have to make things up.

Electric cars are the future.  But Tesla is not going to be the company making most of them.  VW already makes more electric + plug-in hybrid cars than Tesla does.   They will ramp up quicker than Tesla does, and BMW, Mercedes, etc. are right behind them.

Electrification of cars will be an important movement in the next twenty years.  Tesla brings a lot of attention to it.  Elon Musk is great at performing in front of a camera and getting press.  His vision is correct.

But Tesla is a bit player in the auto market today, and bigger, more competent automobile companies are going to eat its lunch tomorrow.  By the time Tesla figures out how to meet demand, other auto makers will have met that demand already.  Nobody is going to wait a year for a Tesla when they can get an electric Porsche at the dealer immediately.
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aboutmri Gareth
Nov 18 · 12:19:57 PM

Time will tell, let’s meet back here in about 5 years and compare notes

My prediction, Tesla becomes one of the most valuable companies on the planet
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Volt3930 Gareth
Nov 18 · 04:13:04 PM

As a life-long VW owner I have to say, I’ve given up on imports for a lot of reasons, and VW in particular. Cheaters deserve the ridicule they get.

Great line from Bird On a Wire (Mel Gibson, Goldie Hawn):

“Prove you’re American, buy a Chevy” referencing a BMW rental car.

I don’t see VW EV’s as anything but an attempt to polish a reputational turd...
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Canadian Reader Gareth
Nov 18 · 04:14:01 PM

Compare to Silicon Valley, in the wild-west decade following the introduction of microcomputers. Who won, who lost? The pioneers who broke new ground and changed the world forever didn’t always survive. Sometimes they did — but only if they re-invented themselves over and over again.

Volkswagen looks like IBM coming out with its PC. It has the money, the reputation, the marketing clout. But will it instead be more like DEC? Or AT&T? That is, will it fail because of corporate cultural preconceptions?

And then, Tesla. Is Tesla more like Osborne, or like Apple? And even so, luck plays a part. There were times Apple nearly went under. The path from small company to gigantic one is strewn with organizational and financial land mines.

Still, the transition to electric vehicles is not quite as big a leap, so not all lessons will apply.
1
[new]
According to Fish Canadian Reader
Nov 18 · 08:38:01 PM

The Tesla fans will say it is more like Apple, the non-believers will be thinking Atari or Commodore.

I think Tesla’s biggest challenge is Musk spreading himself too thin between all of his current and future endeavors.
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[new]
JohnnySacks aboutmri
Nov 17 · 08:36:50 PM

Yes, but Tesla is so cool.  And what could a company like Nissan possibly know about mass producing, distributing, and servicing affordable, dependable vehicles?
Recommended 4 times
[new]
walterc aboutmri
Nov 17 · 11:23:33 PM

Boston and other cities used to have electric trolleys all over the place and a lot fewer diesel buses. All the routes that did not have a dedicated trackway that cars can’t go on are now gone.
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Gareth walterc
Nov 18 · 12:12:11 AM

So you haven’t driven down Huntington Avenue lately?
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walterc Gareth
Nov 18 · 04:20:57 AM

Huntington Ave. has dedicated space for the tracks to, I think, Brigham Circle. Last time I was there, that branch of the green line no longer went through Jamaica Plain.
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Gareth walterc
Nov 18 · 10:01:54 AM

Green line still goes to Jamaica Plain, but not through it.  The tracks run in the road down Huntington from Brigham Circle to the corner before the J-Way, hook left on South Huntington, and go a couple blocks to the loop at Heath Street.  The rails are very slippery to drive on in the rain.  The rails that used to continue down South Huntington to Centre, then South, and then meet up with the Orange Line at Forest Hills were torn up and then argued about for decades.
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walterc Gareth
Nov 18 · 04:10:19 PM

I used to live in Forest Hills, when the green line went all the way to Forest Hills, and I liked that. I haven’t taken it past Brigham Circle in many years. It used to be nice not having to deal with the diesel smoke from buses. Maybe someday we’ll at least have electric buses.

In E.L. Doctorow’s novel Ragtime, two of the characters ride local streetcars from NYC to Boston. There were still trolley tracks under the pavement of my hometown’s Main St. when I was a child. It was possible to commute from my hometown to the nearest city by trolley, but that was before my time. There was zero public transportation in small towns in Connecticut by the 1950s.
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CyberMindGrrl walterc
Nov 18 · 02:00:22 AM

SF, Toronto, and Vancouver are three cities I can think of that still have electric trolley buses.
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Astronut aboutmri
Nov 18 · 04:31:54 AM

“Honestly, if it was not for Elon Musk we would likely not even have an EV industry in the US.”

True.  EVs were written off in the US, not because they were bad but because they challenged the incredibly powerful fossil fuel industry.

I looked at used EVs recently and found a 2013 Nissan Leaf for under $9000.  Considering that the electrical equivalent of a gallon of gas is about $1, and that the simplicity of an EV means that the maintenance costs of an EV are very, very low, the operating costs are hard to beat.

At the moment pure electrics have a range issue; there are simply not enough charging stations available.  Musk is fixing that, too, and new advances in lithium ion batteries will soon give electric cars the range of a tankful of gasoline.
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Volt3930 Astronut
Nov 18 · 04:23:18 PM

You are forgetting the Chevy Bolt. I already have enough range to travel the entire SF Bay Area, and charging stations are readily available anywhere I want to go. Which is not to say it’s a complete charging solution for cross country driving, but honestly, who does that? Right now it covers 90+% of what 90+% of drivers need for urban living here. And despite the haphazard approach to planning locations, it is becoming very useful.

If VW would hurry up with the installation of charging stations that are part of their settlement, I might be comfortable driving to Oregon or San Diego (not that I need to, mind you).
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ArtGeek Volt3930
Nov 18 · 10:35:45 PM

All my relatives live far away. I’m not going to want to rent a gas car to visit them if I own an electric car. I don’t always want to fly. It’s a pain in the a$$ anymore.
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BlackSheep1 Jim M
Nov 17 · 07:39:49 PM

I’m in that small number.

Buy something I understand how to work on — never new, but always as low-mileage as my money can reach — and keep it in as good as shape as possible.

Recommended 1 time
[new]
jdanel3566 Jim M
Nov 18 · 02:22:05 AM

Fleet operators are not much subject to virtue signaling — bottom line is what they want.
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dano2l Gareth
Nov 17 · 06:51:18 PM

Self driving cars will absolutely lead to the mostly death of independent car ownership. People already struggle with car payments, insurance and gas. On demand fractional usage is what the masses will go with. Declining individual ownership means car prices will go up for the rest of those who want to buy. Not to mention the land currently used for parking lots will be utilized for other retail purposes, further making car ownership a pain in the ass because of reduced parking.
Recommended 6 times
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msmellie dano2l
Nov 17 · 07:18:26 PM

Considering the direction that retail is going in this country, I can’t see how that would work.  Maybe they’ll be used for Amazon warehouses.
Recommended 1 time
[new]
MrBigDaddy msmellie
Nov 17 · 08:05:28 PM

I agree, brick and mortar retailing is becoming a dinosaur. To be honest though, I dont know what physically replace it, hopefully they just bulldoze and make them green space.

Recommended 4 times
[new]
Stupidsays MrBigDaddy
Nov 18 · 10:09:20 AM

It seems like restaurant's are replacing everything. We have an unquenchable hunger for food variety.
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praying manatheist msmellie
Nov 17 · 08:43:09 PM

I’m not seeing the connection between self-driving cars and the death of retail, brick and mortar stores.  People will always need to drive.

To expand on dano’s point, normal people won’t be able to afford insurance once self driving eEVs are common as human drivers will be a huge risk compared to EVs and insurance rates will reflect that.  Humans are terrible at driving as the death toll from car accidents attests.

You won’t buy a car, you’ll just join a service that will supply you with a pickup and delivery much like what uber does now, only without human drivers.  Most of the time my car just sits in the driveway.  In the future, we won’t have driveways.
Recommended 2 times
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left sorta praying manatheist
Nov 18 · 10:00:33 PM

This is probably bad news for hobbyists who don’t want to have to unload everything every time they stop somewhere.  But I suspect it’s overstated. How about soccer mom, who in this case has 4 kids, two of whom need car seats, and the other two need sports gear? She can’t carry all that junk with her.

It’s very unlikely human drivers will become more dangerous. Just think if the vast majority of the other cars drove safely. Wouldn’t that reduce your own risk of a crash?
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MrBigDaddy dano2l
Nov 17 · 08:07:18 PM

I agree to, the millennials dont care much about cars, or big houses for that matter, they care mostly for phones, clothes, and self pampering stuff like spa’s and tans etc.  There is a huge shift going on
Recommended 2 times
[new]
Dr Moreau MrBigDaddy
Nov 17 · 08:36:48 PM

Partly we don’t care about cars and houses, but mostly we just can’t afford them :)
Recommended 13 times
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ladybug53 Dr Moreau
Nov 18 · 01:56:54 AM

Exactly.
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CyberMindGrrl Dr Moreau
Nov 18 · 02:01:44 AM

Rent is too damned high as well.
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Dr Moreau CyberMindGrrl
Nov 18 · 02:19:27 AM

My actual political philosophy...
Rent_is_too_damn_high_4.jpg
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Tuatha de Dannan Dr Moreau
Nov 18 · 09:23:12 PM

Every time I see his picture I have to think time travel has been accomplished and they grabbed this guy from the 1800’s.  His beard just screams that time period. 
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splashy MrBigDaddy
Nov 18 · 04:26:36 AM

Not a millennial, but wouldn’t have a car if I didn’t need one living out in the boonies like I do.

I would love to have a self-driving car! If I never drove again I would not miss it.
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JohnnySacks dano2l
Nov 17 · 08:44:40 PM

Assuming self driving cars are going to somehow be a thing, I can’t imagine what the interior of a communal car would look like.  The  thought of it disgusts me.  Good market for disposable tyvek haz-mat suits.
Recommended 11 times
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Gareth JohnnySacks
Nov 17 · 08:53:43 PM

Surely you look forward to spending hours a day in the back of a taxi nobody owns, with other people’s farts, stains, and fast food wrappers.
Recommended 3 times
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Quixotic42 Gareth
Nov 18 · 06:08:22 AM

My former roommate is convinced those cars will also come with a self-sterilizing button, the same way an oven has a self-cleaning button. Fingers crossed, right?
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Gareth Quixotic42
Nov 18 · 11:41:30 AM

The best part is that they’ll fly!
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BaritoneWoman Gareth
Nov 18 · 02:16:25 PM

Tee hee :)
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left sorta Quixotic42
Nov 18 · 10:02:36 PM

What do you suppose the settlement will be when one of those sterilizing gadgets goes off with a passenger inside the vehicle?
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rhedfish Gareth
Nov 18 · 06:19:20 PM

At least a taki has a driver to clean up and monitor the behavior of the riders. Same with bus drivers. Criminal are going to love self driving cars and trucks! Again, truck drivers not only drive but keep an eye on the contents.
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jjohnjj JohnnySacks
Nov 17 · 08:56:15 PM

Hadn’t thought of that. A big part of a cab driver’s job is keeping the vehicle sanitary.
Recommended 4 times
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jdanel3566 dano2l
Nov 18 · 02:27:11 AM

The community bicycle stands are pioneering the way that cars will go in the future, except the car can come to you.
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Michael Kal Gareth
Nov 17 · 08:22:06 PM

When Tesla puts solar panels on the roof of it’s vehicles (ala Fisker IIRC) and builds solar charging semi trailer kits, EV will have come of age. We are moving in right direction.
Recommended 5 times
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Dr Colossus Michael Kal
Nov 17 · 10:21:43 PM

Roof top panels barely generate enough power to turn on the electronics much less charge the battery.
Recommended 7 times
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wildatnite Dr Colossus
Nov 18 · 12:29:47 AM

How about all along the trailer it is pulling?
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John Chapman wildatnite
Nov 18 · 07:36:49 AM

Trailers (containers) are generally a completely separate item that is moved, but not owned, by the shipping company.
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left sorta John Chapman
Nov 18 · 10:27:20 PM

That’s a surmountable problem, but the lack of power is not.

Let’s say we have a semi trailer with 33 square meters available on top. A chart I saw on Wikipedia shows an average insolation (over 24 hours) around 200 watts per square meter for a fairly large area of the USA. Make the very optimistic assumption that super duper solar cells can convert half of that to electricity. Further assume that charging, discharging, and motor inefficiencies reduce the available power on the driveshaft(s) by 25 percent. That’s 2475 watts. Let’s assume that the truck is only moving 6 hours a day, so we can multiply by 4, to get 9900 watts available for 6 hours. That’s equivalent to 13.3 hp. Not really enough to run a heavy truck, I’d wager. A chart on page 9 of the following presentation indicates that a trailer truck would use 100 hp or so just going 50 mph.

energy.gov/…

This is all approximate, hand waving stuff, but I think we can say with some confidence that trucks in temperate climates won’t get enough power from sunlight. Except maybe if restricted to flat places like the Netherlands, and driven VERY slowly. And in those places, they’d be inferior to canal boats. ;-)

If you put the solar cells on the warehouses too, it might work. Then there’s the proposal for solar cells robust enough to use for paving..
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Michael Kal Dr Colossus
Nov 18 · 12:54:03 AM

I had solar panel to top off my RV battery and it was maybe 12x18 inches. Pretty sure the Fisker didn’t have one for aesthetic reasons alone. With newest panels, it maybe a way to top off the battery while idling in traffic. I’m sure five 200w panels on a box van would do more than power up the electronics though. On a semi at cruise speed on the open road, with 40 feet of panels, plus whatever is on the sunny side of the trailer, I’m sure there would be some power gained.
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Dr Colossus Michael Kal
Nov 18 · 03:52:40 PM

The 200W is for the sun directly hitting the panels. On a roundish body that is required for good drag coefficient you will never get the full 200W. Even panels on a 53 foot trailer wouldn’t generate full power but for a few minutes every day during the summer when the sun is directly over head.
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Simplify Dr Colossus
Nov 18 · 01:05:10 AM

Just look at how solar cars have to be made—ultra-lightweight, extreme aerodynamic shape, driver-only (often positioned lying down), no cargo capacity, almost no collision protection, bicycle tires, daylight/good weather only—just to operate.
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Volt3930 Simplify
Nov 18 · 04:42:13 PM

This is 3 years old already:

 Saw this up close a few years back, seats 4. It can maintain 40MPH in the sun, any slower and the battery is charging, faster it is discharging.
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According to Fish Volt3930
Nov 18 · 08:44:56 PM

Do I need to stay home on a rainy day?
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dhonig Michael Kal
Nov 18 · 12:53:23 AM

Nope. The added weight would eat up any energy generation and more.
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42Cliffsideb dhonig
Nov 18 · 03:28:12 AM

Stick on panels that look cool. not terribly efficient though, but very light

electrek.co/...
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Mokurai Gareth
Nov 17 · 09:11:22 PM

WalMart and Meijer are the first to place actual orders.

There are lots of other large electric vehicles in use saving money. Buses, trains, trolleys, very short-haul trucks, mining vehicles that haul tons of material downhill, and go up unloaded, so that they generate net electricity from regenerative braking.
Recommended 10 times
[new]
Gareth Mokurai
Nov 17 · 09:48:43 PM

Yes, and they’re not doing it so their neighbors will think they’re cool.  They’re doing it to save money.  That is why it matters more than a fringe market for a luxury car.
Recommended 8 times
[new]
John Chapman Mokurai
Nov 18 · 07:54:10 AM

I've been trying to suggest logging trucks would be an excellent use for electrical semis. First, they have relatively short routes (from the sawmill to the woods and back). Second, they drive steep narrow routes on which the increased torque of electric engines would be more efficient and allow for better maneuvering. Third, many if not most sawmills generate their own electricity (from sawdust) at a surplus, which would fuel the vehicles for free. Finally, timber prices are correlated with energy prices. That means that logging increases when gas prices go up, even with increased costs of diesel. If the connection between logging and gas prices is broken, profits would go up even more.

I know that logging is something that gives a lot of people a bad taste in their mouths, but forest products are an important industry that, if done responsibly, is much lighter on the land than most agriculture. California has tremendous forest reserves and strict forestry regulations as well as very high gas prices. It seems like a no brainier to me.
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lancelotta Gareth
Nov 17 · 11:59:31 PM

I realize I’m in the minority, but I don’t mind paying more for all sorts of products and service “for reasons of greenness.” Respect for our planet is important to me, and — since my son will have to live here long after I’m gone — I think it’s as “rational choice”, if not more so, than screwing future generations to save myself a few bucks.
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peregrine kate marksb
Nov 17 · 06:17:53 PM

Awesome to have your first-person expert commentary, thanks. I hope that your sister is OK.
Recommended 22 times
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marksb peregrine kate
Nov 17 · 07:46:14 PM

She’s well into liver failure, for no reason anyone can figure out, and it’s really hard. She’s one of the most intelligent individuals I’ve had the pleasure of knowing, but liver disease reduces your mental capacity because of ammonia and toxin buildup in the brain, and that’s what’s really sad. She’s my baby sister, only 60, and this is difficult for all of us to accept. But, being mortal, nobody gets out alive, so it’s a thing we have to come to grips with.

Thanks to all of you for caring. Pie fights and Russian trolls aside, this is why we are here—we care about our community and love each other.
Recommended 41 times
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nexwest marksb
Nov 17 · 11:12:55 PM

I just choked up and tears came to my eyes.
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walterc marksb
Nov 17 · 11:27:19 PM

I’m so sorry about your sister. I hope you and she have a strong support system. Thanks for taking the time to write this diary in a difficult time.
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peregrine kate marksb
Nov 17 · 11:56:59 PM

I’m very sorry. As someone only a few months shy of 60, I agree, that’s not nearly old enough. I wish it could be otherwise for her and for all who love her. {{{{{marksb and sister}}}}}
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goodasgold peregrine kate
Nov 18 · 06:06:33 AM

Me too, Kate.  Almost 60. 

Marksb—I’m very sorry about your news. Peace to you and your family.
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FarWestGirl marksb
Nov 18 · 01:46:19 AM

I’m so sorry. Is she eligible for transplant?

FWG RN
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skyounkin marksb
Nov 17 · 06:23:09 PM

I hope your sister is okay- love to you both!!
Recommended 8 times
[new]
Helpless marksb
Nov 17 · 06:30:40 PM

The revolution will happen overnight as soon as operators can eliminate the driver — perhaps operation like ships with pilots used for the tricky part of navigating in port.  In this case, drivers used only for the first and last 100 yards.
Recommended 5 times
[new]
Helpless Helpless
Nov 17 · 06:33:31 PM

But then, the US would have to address the problem of what to do when robots replace the human workforce.  Guaranteed minimum income, perhaps?
Recommended 3 times
[new]
wu ming Helpless
Nov 17 · 06:43:08 PM

they’ll expect us peons to reduce the surplus population.
Recommended 4 times
[new]
Michael Kal wu ming
Nov 17 · 08:27:39 PM

They We (US govt) are already doing it. It’s why we’ve been in a war in Iraq for 16 years with no end in sight. Population control through warfare and genocide.
Recommended 2 times
[new]
JerryNA Michael Kal
Nov 18 · 03:06:44 AM

The idea is reprehensible, all right, but numerically speaking it does not make sense. The GOP is happy enough creating fear to garner votes and profiting off of wasting trillions of taxpayer dollars to support the military contractors & weapons industries.
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NebLib Helpless
Nov 17 · 08:17:57 PM

Soylent green
Recommended 4 times
[new]
praying manatheist Helpless
Nov 17 · 08:46:13 PM

Eventually we’ll have to go to minimum income as futurists have been telling us for decades. 

We’re getting too efficient and automated for everyone to have 40 hour jobs in the future.  It’s a ways off, but it will happen out of necessity.
Recommended 5 times
[new]
lancelotta praying manatheist
Nov 18 · 12:02:04 AM

Wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t have to work 40 hr weeks? How I’d love to have a garden big enough to provide my food, and sell electricity to cover my other costs.
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wildatnite praying manatheist
Nov 18 · 12:32:12 AM

There  is going to have to be a lot of right wing kooks to die off for that to happen.
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BlackBandFedora Helpless
Nov 17 · 09:15:27 PM

Guaranteed minimum income, perhaps?

That sounds like European Socialism. Let's be realistic and look at the GOP MAGA model solutions:

* Financial disincentives to reproduce, free public school for first child, $15,000 year for second+

*  no social security number or benefits for second+ child

* Second+ children are automatically on “standby only” at hospital emergency rooms and no recourse if they die waiting for treatment

* Second+ children automatically drafted to serve 10+ years conscription in military endless wars abroad.

* rationing for food, housing and vital services. Rations can be “bought” by volunteering to perform personal services for the wealthy, (personal domestic work, prostitution, massages, etc.)

* Gladiatorial sport fodder. Human prey for folks like the Trump boys.

Recommended 2 times
[new]
Mokurai Helpless
Nov 17 · 09:17:31 PM

See The Midas Plague, by Frederik Pohl, for a tongue-in-cheek solution. It is part of his Midas World series.
Recommended 4 times
[new]
marksb Helpless
Nov 17 · 07:48:23 PM

The port-to-yard transportation system has been proposed in various ways to be driver-free. Solutions range from trains to special roadways for only semis pulling containers (which sounds like a train, right?) It’s an ongoing public policy planning discussion that is sometimes covered by what’s left of the LA Times.
Recommended 8 times
[new]
Michael Kal marksb
Nov 17 · 08:29:15 PM

Of course you know who will be required to foot that bill? Certainly not the rich, but the dwindling middle class.
Recommended 0 times
[new]
lancelotta Helpless
Nov 18 · 12:06:19 AM

Best of all, President Trump is all about investing in new technologies that can make our country more competitive, while helping mitigate the effects of climate change.

Oh, wait...
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RichM marksb
Nov 17 · 06:46:44 PM

In order for somebody else to do this, they would have to disrupt their entire supply chain, not to mention their assembly.  The only similarity between an ICE and an electric motor is that they both spin a rod.  There it ends.
Recommended 2 times
[new]
Gareth RichM
Nov 17 · 08:57:16 PM

VW announced today they plan to invest 84 billion in electric only vehicles. This is more than the value of Tesla in its entirety.
Recommended 5 times
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marksb RichM
Nov 17 · 11:41:52 PM

Ah yes, but actually if a company designs and manufactures vehicles, they can hire or retrain some EE/power systems engineers and design EV vehicles, and they have existing manufacturing system to build them. My honest opinion is that the product strategy must, first of all, focus on existing product lines and existing product markets. Thus, a company focuses entirely and exclusively on keeping an existing product success, expanding that success, or achieving higher sales in an existing product space. To Ford, the existing F-150 truck market is far more important than creating a whole new product line that would not only challenge the existing market leader (the F-150) but, and this is the most important: it would cost a huge amount of investment capital to design and manufacture an EV or hybrid F-150. Which everyone would love, by the way, because a work truck gets shitty mileage. It’s at the bottom of the priority list, because the most important thing is to protect and expand the existing successful revenue stream. Too much risk.

Existing companies rarely create disruptive technology and products. It happens, and it’s wonderful when it does*, but in my experience it’s a startup that creates the disruptive breakthrough, and then a large company will acquire them and their competitors will race to catch up. Some of the reason for this is most major companies are public, and it’s hard to tell shareholders that you’re going to invest the net worth of the company into something brand new and unproven. Tesla is a private company and if Musk wants to create and market a new solar-electric mouse trap, he can, and there are no shareholders to scream for his head at the next shareholders meeting.

(* Now that I think of it, I’m kinda’ wrong. The HP Laser Printer is an excellent example of a major company that did create a new technology and product, but it was designed and built by a renegade group with very little support from corporate. Apple did it with the iPhone, but honestly the smartphone was a concept we in telecom talked about for at least six years before the iPhone was introduced, and it was only developed and marketed because Steve Jobs was as crazy as he was brilliant. Ericsson developed mobile phone systems with a little group off to the side who, without official company authorization, took military radio tech and dreamed it into a new form, which Motorola jumped into as well. I guess you could say that Toyota did it with the Prius, which has paved the way for all other hybrids and EV development by proving that a viable and profitable market exists. In business circles this is called Intrapreneurship, to build a startup on the inside. Oh gosh, this sounds like another diary...)
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Gareth marksb
Nov 18 · 12:24:56 AM

Tesla is a public company. IPO was June 2010.
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[new]
marksb Gareth
Nov 18 · 01:24:14 AM

Ah. Thanks. So much for my doing my research first, eh?
1
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joesig marksb
Nov 17 · 08:08:14 PM

Great, and useful, diary.  Thank you.
Recommended 3 times
[new]
wisqerbisqit marksb
Nov 17 · 08:56:35 PM

Geek away! The beauty really is in the details.
Recommended 4 times
[new]
JohnnySacks marksb
Nov 17 · 08:56:58 PM

He’s going up against the likes of Volvo, a company who actually has a long history of building some of the best heavy trucks in the world, and has design, development, marketing, distribution, and service in place.  This is not going to be easy.
Recommended 2 times
[new]
Mokurai marksb
Nov 17 · 10:01:15 PM

Tesla is just the first. Cummins has a drive train to sell to truck makers, with lower performance as announced. We'll see what that turns into. There are others.
Recommended 2 times
[new]
plan9pub marksb
Nov 17 · 10:20:03 PM

Not a trucker, but lots of contact with them, and a early solar/EV adopter. I too am VERY excited and deriving great pleasure and child-like glee from this. My “Star Trek” future, destroyed of late by the Trump administration, is being saved by a single man and his companies.

If I had the cash, I wouldn’t buy the new Roadster, I would buy the semi. Then I would plug it in with my Level 1 cord, just so I could laugh like a giddy fool when I came home from work watching it charge for 19 days.
Recommended 2 times
[new]
Lib Dem FoP plan9pub
Nov 18 · 12:59:57 AM

Really quite soon there will be a lot fewer of them as the first step will be to allow one driver “trains” of perhaps 5 or 6 semis, the first having the driver and the following ones trailling at a close safe distance all linked together wirelessly. These might even have routes like old freight trains; a driver goes through say four town dropping off or picking up further semis to add to the train or drop off the semi for local delivery. You can even envisage the local delivery drivers going with their own car tagging along behind in case there is not a semi waiting to be picked up.

I sometimes visit a suburban shopping area in London and it happens to be one of the areas where Amazon is trying out automated delivery using small carts. They are self-driven and have a sort of cyclist stlye warning flag so people can see them coming. Even so, for the experiment a human tags along behind on foot.
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Volt3930 plan9pub
Nov 18 · 04:54:10 PM

You’ll need a trailer with an empty container to convert to living space. That will also give you enough roof to solar charge faster than a level 1. Or perhaps level 1 plus all the domestic uses for the electricity. Perfect vacay home. Drive some place, charge a coupla weeks, drive somewhere else.
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[new]
Mercy Ormont marksb
Nov 18 · 12:59:14 AM

Good thoughts to your sister.

I bet it takes well under ten years.  Once a new technology gets going it gathers steam and all one has to do is get out of the way.
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FarWestGirl marksb
Nov 18 · 01:38:43 AM

It’s very exciting! No more 15-18 speed shifting!

Can’t wait to see how they go over! (not sure about the suicide doors, we’ll see)

Couple of points:

It’s going to mess up road use taxes for a while, they’re usually collected via fuel taxes.(will be an additional bonus for EV truck operators until that’s fixed)

And, while it may decrease the possibility of jackknifing, it’s still an articulated vehicle, if the trailer loses traction on a curve, it can still wrap around the truck.

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Volt3930 FarWestGirl
Nov 18 · 05:36:37 PM

EV drivers have long been proposing a road-use fee based on actual miles driven, with a weight multiplier for heavier vehicles. EV’s would pay more than a similar ICE due to the added weight of the battery.

Annual inspection of odometer could be combined with smog or other required inspections, and truckers are already required to keep a log book which can be inspected at any time.
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corvaire marksb
Nov 18 · 01:39:36 AM

Love me some geekage!  This is cool news.
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anastasia p marksb
Nov 18 · 01:50:32 AM

Glad to see the story at the top of the rec list.  I would have missed it because I have been so obsessed with this cruel, abominable and economy-destroying tax deform piece of shit.
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alexla marksb
Nov 18 · 02:50:13 AM

Yeah it was great read, the future is nigh!
1
[new]
Quixotic42 marksb
Nov 18 · 06:04:01 AM

We appreciate you geeking out with us! Your expertise enlightens us all and it was nice to find a reason for optimism in an otherwise depressing news day.
1
[new]
MadScientist marksb
Nov 18 · 02:48:47 PM

Hydrogen fuel has the disadvantage of being tremendously explosive.  Worse than gasoline.
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[new]
Thomas A Paine MadScientist
Nov 18 · 04:37:57 PM

So why are Toyota, Honda, and soon GM, building hydrogen fuel cell cars?

Hydrogen is “tremendously explosive” only if it contained, and since it is the lightest element it evaporates and dissipates almost instantly when it is not contained, so it is actually much safer than gasoline and diesel that just sit there and burn you up.

Talking to a friend who drives fuel trucks, telling me one of their drivers recently rolled a tanker going around an interchange too fast, burned, said there were no identifiable remains of the driver.  Not a trace.
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[new]
Volt3930 MadScientist
Nov 18 · 05:40:53 PM

Not to mention, current sources come 95% from fossil fuels.
0
[new]
Thomas A Paine marksb
Nov 18 · 04:35:13 PM

TOYOTA AND NIKOLA are planning to have Hydrogen Fuel Cell trucks on the market maybe as early as 2019, Nikola is building a hydrogen fueling network in joint venture with Ryder and US Express, so we will soon have a small but growing presence for both EV trucks and HFC trucks.
0
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MarkW53 marksb
Nov 18 · 05:41:15 PM

On top of that how about rockets that take off, …. and then come back to land safely? that is pretty geeky, too!

Great blog, thanks for the review of the business side of trucking.
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[new]
terrypinder
Nov 17 · 05:48:11 PM

nicely done. and yes I think this could be a huge game-changer.
Recommended 21 times
[new]
DBHart
Nov 17 · 05:50:32 PM

Great explanation of how the economics of the EV semi would work.  As someone that drives amongst the tons of trucks coming to and from the port, I think that replacing the diesel trucks with EV trucks would really help the air quality in the LA basin.  Not to mention all the local delivery trucks.
Recommended 39 times
[new]
PJEvans DBHart
Nov 17 · 06:05:07 PM

The residents of the harbor cities would sure appreciate cleaner air!
Recommended 19 times
[new]
Karl Rover PJEvans
Nov 17 · 06:41:41 PM

The air in the Inland Empire is worse. LA’s smog ends up there.
Recommended 7 times
[new]
PJEvans Karl Rover
Nov 17 · 06:49:52 PM

Yes, and the Central Valley could use help for this also.
Recommended 8 times
[new]
KenBee DBHart
Nov 18 · 05:30:05 AM

there was some initiative in the 90s maybe to force/fund cleaner engines for the container/port delivery trucks.
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[new]
Volt3930 DBHart
Nov 18 · 05:47:50 PM

A huge percentage of the smog is actually the ships burning bunker fuel. They are now required to burn a cleaner fuel within 30 miles of the coast. Once that rule went into effect they all changed their routes to no longer approach from the south along the coast, but now come in due east so they can use the cheap stuff longer. All that crap floats in on the prevailing winds.
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[new]
lurknomore
Nov 17 · 05:51:19 PM

Logged in to say excellent post!

On a personal note I stay in the Valley near 405 when I visit and the more electrics on the road means less fumes, less noise. #MakeLAGreatAgain (sorry couldn’t resist)
Recommended 32 times
[new]
elfling lurknomore
Nov 17 · 06:02:33 PM

Also less congestion in passes, where the semis can’t move quickly up the steep grades.
Recommended 25 times
[new]
DisNoir36 elfling
Nov 17 · 06:06:36 PM

Not to mention that with self driven trucks in the not too distant future, transportation can be done on off peak hours thereby reducing congestion.
Recommended 13 times
[new]
wu ming DisNoir36
Nov 17 · 06:43:45 PM

that can be done right now with drivers.
Recommended 5 times
[new]
DisNoir36 wu ming
Nov 17 · 07:36:23 PM

It can be done but drivers have to rest at some point by law.  Automated trucks don’t.  They can drive through the night non stop.
Recommended 6 times
[new]
Trail Rider elfling
Nov 17 · 08:23:06 PM

My daily commute involves a bottle-neck of traffic trying to get around a major river and then through a major metropolitan area.  The slow pace of traffic is definitely exacerbated by the big rigs and their slow start-ups at the traffic lights, right at the tip of the bottle-neck; instead of a couple dozen cars getting through a light, you might get a couple of trucks through it — which serves to prompt other drivers in a hurry to try foolhardy manuevers to get past the trucks.  Trucks that could move faster would improve this situation quite a bit.
Recommended 8 times
[new]
alamancedem
Nov 17 · 05:51:48 PM

I know fair number the buses around here are hybrid.  I suspect that if EV ones are made the transit folks around here would buy some.

I’m starting to see charging stations pop up.  We have a Tesla one as well as a couple of other networks not far from where I live in a small city.
Recommended 18 times
[new]
DButch alamancedem
Nov 17 · 06:33:24 PM

There’s a lot of hybrid busses in the Puget Sound area now and King County Metro has been ramping up the EV fleet.  The charging station for those things is a pretty impressive beast!
Recommended 10 times
[new]
Dr Moreau alamancedem
Nov 18 · 01:04:20 AM

I think we’ll start to see a lot more electric buses in the next decade.  The two major barriers in the past have been cost and mileage per charge, since transit buses can travel hundreds of miles every day.  But cost is going down and battery capacity is quickly going up.

In Southern California, I know a few municipal operators (like Foothill Transit) have been trying out electric buses made by a start up called Proterra.  Los Angeles Metro has spent a lot of money upgrading it’s entire fleet to compressed natural gas, so it’s doubtful they’ll convert right away.  But as they begin to retire older buses I’m sure they’ll be looking into electric options.
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[new]
Lib Dem FoP Dr Moreau
Nov 18 · 01:20:32 AM

London has a number of single deck hydrogen powered vehicles for specific central routes as limited stop express type services. They all operate out of one garage so extablishing a refuelling network is not a problem. There was even a proposal to use clockwork trams in one English town a few years. The stops were to have special points to wind up the spring as the tram docked. (Lesson, a public transport vehicle does not necessarily have to have a big “fuel tank” or battery)

I suppose the same is true of most urban transit systems. The large majority of London buses are diesel hybrids which are on stored/recovered electricity for most of the time apart from when they are heavily loaded or going up hill. The Japanese have just brought out a recharging system that works like those contactless ones for cellphones. M,agnetic pulses are “translated” into electricity, using giant versions of the pads you put your phone on. This may not work for urban buses where often they have problems aligning with the stop because of other buses in front etc.

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[new]
Dr Moreau Lib Dem FoP
Nov 18 · 02:17:53 AM

The clockwork tram sounds super interesting!  I’ll have to research that one.  I assume it ran off some kind of flywheel?  Though from a maintenance perspective, it sounds like a nightmare hahaha...

I believe LA Metro looked at both electric and CNG in the 90’s, but the battery technology just wasn’t viable at that point.  CNG was chosen because it has a lot less emissions (and smog is always on everyone’s minds here) and the infrastructure wasn’t too hard to install, because SoCal Gas already had high-pressure gas lines throughout the county.
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[new]
Lib Dem FoP Dr Moreau
Nov 18 · 03:28:38 PM

Yes, it was flywheel based, the stations would spin it up (rather than my blurry memory recalled earlier). IIRC the trial or at least demonstration was in Brighton, on the South coast of England.

Other vehicle users have had diesel vehicles converted to LNG, notably Prince Philip who had a London taxi converted so he could drive around relatively anonymously. He has since given it to a museum so I am not sure if they retain the LNG point in the Royal Mews.
0
[new]
Timaeus
Nov 17 · 05:54:04 PM

Very interesting post.  It’s great to see posts from people who are very knowledgeable.

What’s up with Musk?  He must be from another planet!  He invents more in a typical day than most people do in an entire lifetime.
Recommended 15 times
[new]
MorrellWI1983 Timaeus
Nov 17 · 06:22:30 PM

Musk is a visionary, like Edison or Tesla. plus hes rich enough that he can afford to eat any losses.
Recommended 12 times
[new]
Rei MorrellWI1983
Nov 17 · 06:29:39 PM

Not “any losses”.  He’s leveraged himself incredibly heavy in the past to bring about the things that he thinks are important.  Essentially every penny he made from the sale of Paypal went into SpaceX and Tesla.  At one point — during an economic downturn, when lending was tight and both companies were struggling with huge problems (SpaceX a series of launch failures; Tesla with the discovery that Eberhard’s financial numbers were all wrong and that the transmission they contracted out for was garbage), he very nearly went bankrupt.  It would have been a lot easier for him to pull the plug on one or both ventures to ensure that he still had enough money left for a comfortable life.  Instead, he basically mortgaged his entire life into them to keep them afloat.
Recommended 22 times
[new]
catwho Rei
Nov 17 · 08:19:35 PM

And it’s paid off handsomely.

We’re looking at the Tesla solar roofing tiles when our roof needs to get replaced.  Unlike regular solar panels, the HOA in our neighborhood can’t yell at us about them.  (Not that they could stop us, since our house was not subject to a covenant when we got our mortgage as the HOA wasn’t in existence at the time. But they’d still be mad.)
Recommended 10 times
[new]
JohnnySacks catwho
Nov 17 · 09:00:00 PM

Good that you can wait, the Tesla solar roof is vapor-ware.
Recommended 0 times
[new]
catwho JohnnySacks
Nov 17 · 11:53:05 PM

That’s fine, there are other companies out there in the same space, and the technology is only going to improve from here on out.
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[new]
marksb JohnnySacks
Nov 18 · 01:24:27 AM

Huh.

    When will my Solar Roof be installed?
    Initial trial installations are complete and undergoing evaluation, customer installations are about to start and will ramp up through 2017. As we continue to ramp production, we will begin deliveries internationally. Solar Roof will be installed based on your order queue position when Solar Roof is ready for your region.

2
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